Registered users    
MembershipMembership:
Latest New UserLatest:Mary Reiman
New TodayNew Today:11
New YesterdayNew Yesterday:9
User CountOverall:23414

Private messaging    
You must be logged in to use this module.
Top 10 posters    
NamePosts
Mariette Knap12968
Marina Roos12627
Eriq Neale2117
Stan Guinn1917
Michael Patrick1914
Robert Pearman1791
Nick Pieters1425
william warren650
Stewart Brown620
Kevin D.579
Welcome unauthorized visitor    
If you want to join us in the discussions on this forum you need to register first. Registration is free! If you are already a registered user please login to join the forum.
Small Business Server Support Forum    
Subject: SBS Monitroing using MSDE
Prev Next
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Author Messages
Rob Pelletier User is Offline
Canada
Member since
7/28/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 133

5/30/2007 06:08 PM  
I have an SBS 2003 SP1 Server using SQL 2000 SP4 for two database programs.  In "Add/Remove Programs" I see that the SBS Monitoring is using MSDE.   I don't particualry like having the MSDE and SQL 2000 running on the same server - I hear they don't play well together.
 
Anyone know how to use SQL 2000 to run SBS monitoring?
Should I be concerned about MDSE and SQL 2000 on the same box?
 
Thanks
Rob Pelletier User is Offline
Canada
Member since
7/28/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 133

5/30/2007 06:19 PM  
OK, so I should read more before posting - sorry about that.

Apparently SBSMonitoring should stay on MSDE, and don't bother trying to change that.

Any thoughts regarding the many comments I'm seeing out there on the SQL sites, that SQL Server shouldn't be installed on the same server as Exchange or on a Domain Controller? I see such comments all over the place, yet it was after all Microsoft who wrote all these various products and packaged them in SBS, right?

Mariette Knap User is Offline
The Netherlands
Member since
3/24/2005

Forum Admins
Posts: 12968

5/30/2007 10:17 PM  
Rob,
 
SBS is special and 'enterprise' people will never understand that. Is there a reason you ask this? Any problems, errors or quirks?

Mariëtte Knap Smallbizserver.Net AdministratorMission accomplished. We have joined the branch office to our SBS 2003 Headquarters and have the same user experience on the branch office as we have on our local  network at the Headquarters. Want to know how? Signup up for a subscription and get instant access to the article series 'How to add an additional Domain Controller from a remote office to the SBS domain'
Rob Pelletier User is Offline
Canada
Member since
7/28/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 133

5/30/2007 10:58 PM  
Yes, we have an SBS 2003 Premium server with two apps running on SQL 2000.
One app runs just fine, but the other is slow (at the best of times) and bloody unusable far too often.
 
The database vendor says that their app should run on its own box, and my client isn't going to do that until he has at least some level of confidence that this just isn't matter of either tweaking the server or maybe even some bad code.
 
The vendor has produced Access-based databases until about a year ago, and since they've gone SQL it's been a pig.  It wasn't terrible at first, and the client was thinking it was worth it for all the new functionality.  However, over the year, it's crawled down to a point where it's holding up production, some screen changes taking over 30 seconds.
 
The funny thing is, the database that's giving us all the grief is relatively small - about 800 MB.  The accounting application, running on the same server is about 13 GB in size and never even hiccups.  This, more than anything, has my cleint asking me to assist in trying to find out why.
 
In my travels I've heard a number of people crying out that SQL on an Exchange server or a Domain Controller is some kind of blasphemy, so I thought I'd ask.
 
However, as I mentioned, I understand the SBS Monitoring HAS to be on MSDE - we'll just need to take it on faith that it's not the MSDE causing the issue.  MSDE is apparently governed in some way to reduce its use of resources (and to sell more SQL Server, I'd bet), but since the databases in question are clearly using the full-blown SQL instance, it's probably not an issue.
 
One thing about SBS is that it tries to be everything for everybody.  When enlisting the help of a specialist on one thing or another  (Exchange, SQL, whatever) all you ever hear about is how putting Exchange on a DC or SQL Server on a DC is a bad parctice.  I figure, if they put enough faith in one or the other of the Microsoft products to feel confident enough to express such an opinion, why not have confidence that Microsoft wouldn't bundle them unless they figure it would work?
 
SBS may once have been a minor offering by Microsoft to try to get bit more of a market they were failing in, but I see it as a major part of their sales now and have a hard time believing that they would bundle these components together when there was a risk that it would blow up the first time someone actually used it.
 
Anyway, I have blasted MS on many points in the past, but I just don't think they have it coming this time...
Mariette Knap User is Offline
The Netherlands
Member since
3/24/2005

Forum Admins
Posts: 12968

5/31/2007 07:54 AM  
Rob,
 
If you really want to know what is the cause of that slowdown you should run SQL profiler on that instance.

Mariëtte Knap Smallbizserver.Net AdministratorMission accomplished. We have joined the branch office to our SBS 2003 Headquarters and have the same user experience on the branch office as we have on our local  network at the Headquarters. Want to know how? Signup up for a subscription and get instant access to the article series 'How to add an additional Domain Controller from a remote office to the SBS domain'
Rob Pelletier User is Offline
Canada
Member since
7/28/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 133

5/31/2007 01:10 PM  
Yes, I have engaged the services of a qualified database administrator to assist with all of this. With his assistance, I have performed some maintenance on the database, and we will watch for any change in performance. Next, some basic performance monitoring to see if anything obvious is amiss with the server's components, then the Profiler to see if there's something in the actual app that is running particularly slowly.

I asked about the SBSMonitoring because MSDE is quite slow (by design) but we agree that it is probably not a factor in our search for this problem's cause. I was just trying to cover all bases. Besides, we can't do anything about the MSDE being there anyway.

Troubleshooting SQL Server is a totally different process than I am used to. Different tools, different language, different logic. It's been interesting, a real eye-opener. For example, someone can advise you to run a certain command against the database, and you are off researching that command, trying not just to find its syntax, but how on earth you can run the command over and over against against 245 tables. It can be done, but it's not something you can learn with a simple Google search.

No chance to get bored in this business!
Mariette Knap User is Offline
The Netherlands
Member since
3/24/2005

Forum Admins
Posts: 12968

5/31/2007 03:24 PM  
 I have learned SQL the hard way. This site runs on SQL 2005 and when I started using Dotnetnuke 2.12 3 years ago I did not know anything about SQL 2000 or VB.Net...

Mariëtte Knap Smallbizserver.Net AdministratorMission accomplished. We have joined the branch office to our SBS 2003 Headquarters and have the same user experience on the branch office as we have on our local  network at the Headquarters. Want to know how? Signup up for a subscription and get instant access to the article series 'How to add an additional Domain Controller from a remote office to the SBS domain'
Edwin Sarmiento User is Offline
Singapore
Member since
2/13/2007

Microsoft MVP
Posts: 133

5/31/2007 03:59 PM  
Do I hear anybody requiring the services of a DBA? ;-) MSDE is a lighter version of SQL Server 2000 and are running on the same database engine. Running multiple instances of SQL Server/MSDE on a server is pretty straight forward but you have to look at performance isues. You are saying that one of your app runs fine while the other is seemingly slow. There are a lot of reasons why your app may be running slow and I would isolate the database server in order to pinpoint the culprit. I've managed enterprise applications where they blame the performance on the hardware and infrastructure when the real problem has something to do with the application design. Sometimes, it's the database design is the one causing slow responsiveness. Managing databases requires a lot more than knowing a few TSQL scripts. For me, the art of automating what I regularly do is something I always look at. I can imagine what you are saying about running a command (I guess this is the DBCC INDEXDEFRAG command for table maintenance) over and over again for more than a hundred tables and sometimes over a few more databases.

MCP MCDBA MCAD MCSD MCT MCTS MCITP : DBA MCSA
http://bassplayerdoc.blogspot.com
Need a remote SQL Server DBA?
Rob Pelletier User is Offline
Canada
Member since
7/28/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 133

6/01/2007 12:49 AM  
Yes, I convinced my client to hire a DBA friend of mine to assist with this, as it's way over my head.  Interesting, but I have no expertise to offer.  As much as I'd like to be all things to all people, you can't become a DBA by buying a few books from Amazon.com and posting a few questions to a forum.
 
Mariette, I understand that you learned SQL Server tha hard way, but I am becoing convinced that there is no easy way.  I have learned a whole new respect for those who make their livings working with databases.  It's a whole different science.
 
As far as posting here is concerned, I was originally asking about running MSDE and SQL 2000 on the same server, but it appears to be unavoidable, and probably inconsequential anyway.
 
Most of the advice I have received so far says that certain hardware issues should be looked at, certain DB maintenance commands should be run, and then there are troubleshooting tools that can be used to pinpoint bottlenecks.  Perfromance Monitor, Profile Analyzer - that sort of thing.  You can learn how to use the tools pretty easily, but learning how to interpret their output takes experience.
 
I'm gonna leave that to the experts, and hopefully learn a thing or two along the way.
Edwin Sarmiento User is Offline
Singapore
Member since
2/13/2007

Microsoft MVP
Posts: 133

6/01/2007 07:26 AM  
I've made a living out of doing database stuff (apart from doing infrastructure and developer stuff as well). I realized that data is the primary concern of all businesses. So whether it's an Excel spreadsheet or an Oracle database, we're pretty sure that business data will be stored in there. With SBS, we're pretty sure that databases won't be as busy and as critical as those in the enterprise. We'll be glad to help you out on thise simle DBA tasks should you need them.

MCP MCDBA MCAD MCSD MCT MCTS MCITP : DBA MCSA
http://bassplayerdoc.blogspot.com
Need a remote SQL Server DBA?
You are not authorized to post a reply.



ActiveForums 3.7
Forum policy    
These Discussion Forums are dedicated to the discussion of the Small Business Server and related server and client software. For the benefit of the community please observe the following posting guidelines:
  1. No Advertising. This includes promotion of commercial products and non-commercial products which are not directly related to Small Business Server and related server and client software.
  2. No Flaming or Trolling.
  3. No Profanity, Racism, or Prejudice.
  4. Site Moderators have the final word on approving/removing a thread or post or comment.