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Subject: Add SBS 2003 to WK2 Domain

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Ernie Matern User is Offline

United States
Member since
5/22/2005

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Posts: 37

1/25/2008 03:34 AM
Hello All, I have read many posts and articles attempting to prepare myself for an upcoming job for a new client, that requires some type of migraton. I have not found anything "exactly" like our situation so I thought I would ask. In this office, there is an existing domain controller running win2k server. It houses a billing database application. There is currently 7 pcs (XP Pro) joined to this domain and they all need access to the billing software.There is 5 other pcs (4 XP Home-all to be upgraded to Pro/1 XP Pro) that are in 2 workgroups, of which 1 accesses the billing software and the other 4 prety much are used to access a web based app/internet access. There is little to no security implemented, a mix of A/V software(3 brands) and 2 versons of Office. Email is by seperate ISP pop3 accounts. The client has purchased a new Dell PE Server preloaded w/SBS 2003 r2 standard, w/licenses for 15 clients, Symantec Endpoint client protection and Exchange Server protection, and new Office 2007 licenses. We want to house the e-mail, enhance user security and system performance. My question is can I do a swing migration (the MS article kb 884453 seemingly is only for clean installs, not OEM pre-installs) to the new server and demote the old while retaining it to function as the billing software server? There are not that many users, only 11 currently set up. Is a Swing Migration the way to go in this case? Would I be better off to just "un-join" the pcs from the domain, demote the existing server, and then add the new server in? I did do a Swing Migration about 2 and a half years ago, and was well satisfied at that time. Any thoughts and comments are appreciated! Thanks, Ernie Matern Matern Computer Services

Boon Tee

Adelaide, Australia
Member since
8/1/2005

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Posts: 493

1/25/2008 03:53 AM
Swing is the way to go. I would blow away the Dell preloaded install and reinstall again the way you want it done and do the swing at that time.

PowerBiz Solutions Adelaide, Australia

Kevin Da Silva User is Offline

Mississauga, Canada
Member since
1/12/2008

Registered Users
Posts: 579

1/26/2008 04:45 AM
Agreed, as it will provided the easiest solution and the lowest amount of down time.

MCSE:Messaging, MCTIP, SBS Specialist

Stan Guinn User is Offline

Texas, USA
Member since
12/29/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 1918

1/26/2008 05:36 AM
From kb88453 ~ "This article describes how to install a Microsoft Windows Small Business Server (SBS) 2003-based computer into an existing domain that does not currently have an SBS server." This article is not about installing SBS onto a server. It is about taking a server that has SBS loaded on it (Ernie's words "OEM pre-installs"). I recommend you read that article a little closer. The steps outlined in it are equivalent to the 2nd part of a swing migration. And in your particular situation, you would not do the first part of a Swing migration any ways. I have done what you are needing to do several times. Adding an SBS server into an existing WIn2k3 domain. I followed the steps in that article and they work just fine. I will take my hat off to Jeff. If I had not done several Swing migrations and had his documentation handy, I might have stumbled on by first project.

Ernie Matern User is Offline

United States
Member since
5/22/2005

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Posts: 37

2/01/2008 01:08 AM
Thanks to all for the responses. I need some more input. I did go ahead and purchase the Swing Migration technician's kit. I have done the swing from the current dc to a temp dc, and now from the temp to the final server, which is ready to go(after wiping it to re-partition drives and to re-install win 2003 to pre sbs setup). All seems to have progressed fine to this point. A new wrinkle for me, which I found out about today. I had planned to make the "switch" to new server on Saturday, which is ideal as the business is basically shut down on weekends.There is an msde based application running on the current server. I had hoped to be able to just "copy" it over to the new server, connect a few clients and test, and have Sat. and sunday to make sure all is well for Monday morning. Well, according to tech support, which does not operate on weekends, they need access to both old and new servers to facilitate the move. I see no way to do this, as the new server has the same name as old. I am thinking that perhaps, before the switch, I can "demote" the current dc to a member server, rename it, introduce the new dc (SBS), and somehow figure how to re-connect all clients to access db and domain as before. Then, with both servers on line together, move the database to new serve, then de-commission old server. Do you think it will work? Thanks for the help! Ernie

Stan Guinn User is Offline

Texas, USA
Member since
12/29/2005

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Posts: 1918

2/01/2008 05:40 AM
Didn't take my advise heh? Got yourself in an unnecessary pickle.

Kevin Da Silva User is Offline

Mississauga, Canada
Member since
1/12/2008

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Posts: 579

2/01/2008 01:58 PM
Dont see why it wouldn't work but Why name both servers the same? I'm sure some where in that Swing Migration kit it says not too.

MCSE:Messaging, MCTIP, SBS Specialist

Ernie Matern User is Offline

United States
Member since
5/22/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 37

2/01/2008 02:48 PM
Actually, one of the main reasons to use Swing Migration is to be able to keep the same name. The original idea was to add the new server while keeping the current server in its present role as the db app server.and demote it. Then, it was decided to eliminate the current server, hence the choice of Swing Migration. So, ok Stan, I could have read your suggested article before, and I have this morning. I believe what I will do is wipe the new server again to be able to follow the article referenced. It does seem to be the better option at this point. Thank you for the help. Ernie

Stan Guinn User is Offline

Texas, USA
Member since
12/29/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 1918

2/01/2008 05:37 PM
As mentioned by Kevin,. you do not need to name the new server the same name as the old server. That only applies when the old server is SBS also, not when it is just a Win 2k server. The point in keeping the two server the same name is because changing the names of the SBS server will break Exchange and SharePoint. It is not necessary in your project. The broad strokes steps in what you are trying to accomplish is to Do Not make the 2 server have the same name Connect the SBS server into the existing network Get the Win 2K server AD up to the same level as the SBS server DCPROMO the Win2k server to not be the DC anymore DCPROMO the SBS to take over DC Seize the FSMO Roles onto the SBS server Clean up and references to the old server having been the DC re-boot everything The ppl supporting the LOB should be able to access both systems at the same time. If the two servers have different names it is OK for them both to be connected to the LAN at the same time. However, this does raise a separate question. When then access the LOB app, are more than 2 users working on it at the same time? Or are you just saying that the database for the LOB will reside on the SBS? And the app itself is a distributed app on the PCs? This is a very important distinction. You cannot have more than 2 ppl logged on to SBS at any one time. And all ppl logged on to SBS have to be administrators. SBS does not function as an application server kike a Win 2k server can.

Jeff Middleton User is Offline

United States
Member since
4/3/2005

Microsoft MVP
Posts: 142

2/01/2008 07:32 PM
This thread is going back and forth and to be honest, I think Ernie was the one closest on track all along until his last post. Ernie, if I was doing the project you describe and the idea was to take the W2K server out of operation and move the LOB out, I think I agree with the idea you proposed to demote and rename the old DC in order to faciliate the transition of the LOB. That plan was perfect for you. That plan is typically not available to people doing Swing Migration with SBS to SBS, therefore I'm going to explain and hopefully cleanup some of the misrepresentations creeping into this thread. KB 884453 cannot be used with a OEM preinstalled server because it does require as identified in step 2 to reload the box. The KB doesn't make it really clear that this means formatting an OEM preinstall, it just assumes there's nothing installed. Reality is to use the KB you have to have a clean system drive. It's difficult to the point of impractical to rename an SBS server without more work than it's worth. That's because you can't rename a DC that is an Exchange Server, and it's actually a bit of a complication to rename an Exchange Server at all. You don't normally try to do that, and you don't normally have a reason why it would help you. In this case, there's no existing Exchange and the existing DC is a Windows (not SBS) installation. Therefore, you don't have the block or complication of renaming (related to Exchange or other applications), and since it's not an SBS you don't have the block against preserving the old DC in the domain with the new SBS. The rule of "only one SBS in a production domain" is technical enforced issue, you simply can't run production that way. But with the case of the old DC being W2K, you are free of that problem. With a W2K server existing and a new SBS OEM purchase having been made, we know that the OEM SBS is a new full copy, not an upgrade license that requires you to discontinue using the prior license on which you based the upgrade purchase. In other words, it's illegal to buy an SBS Upgrade SKU to upgrade your license unless you shutdown the prior server because you didn't buy a second server license, you upgraded the version/release of your existing license...you can't run two machine legally in that case. Ernie has two separate licenses, no technical blocks to running them together, no Exchange preventing a rename on the original DC, and no reason he can't do as he suggested to demote and rename the original DC. The LOB company may be making this more complicated than necessary if the LOB app isn't being change from one version to another. That's to say, if the LOB application running on the original server is going to be running the same version on the new server, the LOB company should be able to enable the customer to simply restore their data from backup on the new server. This begs the question for the LOB company, do they have a disaster recovery answer for restoring their application on a new server in the event the original dies, is stole, or as is the case here...is replaced? Perhaps the LOB company needs access to both machines for a trivial reason that wasn't clarified. It could be as simple as wanting to view the preference settings on both machines to compare the configuration. Finally, to the point of how this project could be done, Swing would preserve the UNC paths and configuration for the environment to make the new server a transparent replacement of the original if the LOB support found it convenient to work in either of these ways: A. Do a normal Swing, build the new FinalDC offline as typical with the same name as the original DC used and then do a restore from backup for all the data including the LOB. B. Do the same as above, but instead of the restore from backup for the LOB, since the original server has no issues in being renamed (no Exchange or Sharepoint), Ernie is correct that he could do a "last server in domain" demote of the W2K server back to workgroup, rename, rejoin it to the domain with the SBS and then he's got the new server preserving the original name and both servers able to be connected to each other. C. Do the construction as indicated in KB 884453 to wipe out the OEM preinstall and build the SBS with a name different than the existing DC. This would not be a Swing, it would be "add SBS to existing domain" installation. The sort of debate being held on this thread is useful in many cases to get new ideas from a lot of people, but in some sense it's a shame that Ernie didn't just ask me in the first place to validate his thinking when he bought the Kit. Every customer who buys a Kit from me has the optiont to get unlimited free direct email support from me for up to 90 days in order to successfully complete one project. Most of the people who posted on this thread are past or current customers and therefore know that they can get this support from me in order to clear out the cobwebs and misunderstandings about what works in which case. The reason I provide support to every single customer as part of their Kit order is to ensure that whatever the situation is, if it's not addressed in directly in the Kit documentation, I address it personally with my support. This way you can be sure that you are getting accurate information, aligned with the project outline in the Kit and based up on the broad understanding I have for all the issues involved. - Jeff Middleton YCST@SBSmigration.com Now as for the question of "is this a Swing project or not", what I think is the best way to state it is that it isn't necessary to do a Swing to build the new server with the original name (a preferred result and reason to do Swing) if you don't care about chaning the server name.

Ernie Matern User is Offline

United States
Member since
5/22/2005

Platinum Membership
Posts: 37

2/01/2008 08:30 PM
Jeff, OK, I can kick myself now, because I know you will and have provided excellent support of your product. I used it a few years ago while I was working at a local resort, and we moved from SBS 2000 to SBS 2003 on a new server. I had some issues at that time and your help got me through it all. So, should I just contact you through your Website to follow up on this? I really do appreciate all the comments, even the one that talks about me getting myself in a "pickle". I am sure we have all been there before, and probably will be there again. I think it is the nature of this beast. Thanks, again. Ernie

Jeff Middleton User is Offline

United States
Member since
4/3/2005

Microsoft MVP
Posts: 142

2/02/2008 12:06 AM
Ernie, I try to keep an eye on things in this forum in case someone poses a question directly to me or I find one of my customers in distress. Please do contact me directly so I can track the conversation properly. I really can't provide the level of commited support here that I do in the forums in SBSmigration.com, or even close to the direct email support I provide. It's best for folks who want my support to use the resources on SBSmigration.com or take advantage of the direct email support that comes in the kit order...you've paid for it, you might as well use it. :) - Jeff Middleton YCST@SBSmigration.com

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